- 2:07 – How does an economic downturn affect Appian (NASDAQ:APPN)?
- 5:11 – Inflation’s impact on Appian’s sales cycle
- 15:16 – Appian’s acquisition plans and Pegasystems lawsuit
- 19:25 – A look at Appian’s Q2 results
- 23:18 – Appian’s dilution and legal fees
Transcript
Colin Tedards: Welcome to CEO interviews here on Seeking Alpha. My name is Colin Tedards and I have the pleasure of being joined today by Matt Calkins of Appian Corporation. Matt, how are you doing today?
Matt Calkins: Hey, Colin, it’s great to be here. I’m doing well.
CT: Awesome. Awesome. Now, before we jump into things with your with all the things that going on with your company, your industry, the macro economy, maybe just give everybody a little bit of background on your background, how you got to this position, how you built this company to where it is today.
MC: Yeah, let me start with Appian, right? Appian is a software company or platform. We call us low code generally or workflow or business process management. But we allow you to develop a new application by dragging and dropping a flowchart, and that’s a lot faster than writing it line by line in a programing language. Because it’s faster, it also allows you to recreate a new process or change a process, gives you agility.
Agility means that your business can react more quickly to circumstances, be that a pandemic, a new regulation, a strategic imperative, anything else. It allows businesses to define themselves. And we’re also empowering developers to do things they wouldn’t have been able to do because our language is a lot easier to use. So that’s basically what we’re about.
What low code is about, Appian is a leader in low code. We we brought the curtain up on this industry with our IPO in 2017. We’ve been talking about it ever since and we’ve been bringing it together. Low code isn’t just workflow, it’s not just drawing that application. It’s also connecting it to all the actors in your organization. You know, all the things that take actions like robotic process automation and rules and artificial intelligence.
And now it’s also about connecting back to how you discover new processes that you need to run. And you can do that through process mining. So we’ve broadened the suite, it’s focused on low code, focused on workflow, but it’s becoming a more total solution and it needs to be because change is so important. The customers demand that there be an easier way to to get end to end on a new process.
CT: Very cool. And so let’s start things off, though, with kind of the macro environment that we’re sitting in. And I know on your last conference call and I think you even have a background in economics, so you’re well suited to discuss on these types of things. But on the last conference call, you you said, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, but essentially said, the macro environment is pretty tough right now and things are pretty tough. And but that’s not necessarily a bad thing your company. So several weeks have gone by. How do you feel about these things now after maybe digesting things even more over the last couple of weeks?
MC: Yeah, well, I think I was right about the economic downturn that we’re going to experience. I I’ve been saying it for a year and I’ve been believing it for a year ever since the other people were talking about temporary inflation. It didn’t look temporary to me. And so we’ve been preparing for this for a couple of months, and we did an acquisition that allows us to get quicker ROI because a recessionary buyer is going to be more interested in quick ROI on their investments. We had lots of time to incorporate that technology into our platform. We are we are ready for a downturn. So when I said that on our last earnings call, I said I’m a bear on the economy. And yet, at the same time, Appian sees a great growth path ahead. I mean, we’re in a strange position here. The economy is really bad. It’s going to have a significant recession. That’s my belief for next year.
And the Fed funds rate that just a few months ago the Fed was predicting would not even hit 4%. I said it would be five, maybe six. I still think it’s going to be five or six before we’re done with this. We’re absolutely going to have to get above the neutral rate. We haven’t even done that yet. So there’s going to be discomfort in the economy. And yet at the same time, Appian faces a very different picture just from the perspective of this organization. We’ve just come out of a first half that was our fastest revenue growth in five years.
Even as these clouds gather, right, even as the economy looks grim and everybody sees that it looks grim and inflation’s way up and we’re expecting a recession and buyers are cautious. At the same time, we had our fastest revenue growth since our IPO in 2017, and that’s at the same time as that. We also come in top of the survey for customer satisfaction.
Gartner does a customer’s choice survey every year. We win every year, which is to say we’re a customer’s choice every year. And that’s looking great. And at the same time, we have a gross renewal rate of 99%. So out of a lot of 100 cents, 99 of those cents will renew this year, which is absolutely, you know, industry top few companies in the world really with a 99% gross renewal rate. And so we have all these strength signs. We’re trying to say we have all these strengths signs at the time when the economy’s flashing, all these warning signs, these negative signs. And so it puts us in an interesting position on how to navigate.
CT: So yeah, so that’s kind of interesting. So how is that impacting your sales cycle? Because the economy is where it’s at. Obviously, the Federal Reserve’s tool is to raise interest rates. That’s their tool. But businesses out there that you’re dealing with their tool is to like drive efficiency like to cut cost in certain ways and certainly becoming more efficient probably is one of the best tools to do that. And so maybe talk about how it seems like your company is really well positioned to offer that, and how are those sales cycles now versus two years ago? How is that progressing?
MC: Yeah, well, I feel good about our positioning, but I think the real test is going to be the market. We’ll see how that positioning works. We believe that the recessionary buyer wants return on investment, a short return on the investment cycle, and fewer vendors. And so we are offering consolidation of uur neighboring industries. No longer are we just about workflow.
We’re about the process, mining, workflow, and automation, including AI and RPA. As a result, you deal with fewer vendors, and it’s integrated single SKU, single upgrade, and single contract. It’s all integrated. It’s a change engine. It just gets you faster to change than you would have been able to get if you’d bought three different vendors and had to integrate them. We think that appeals to the recessionary buyer. We also think that our emphasis on ROI, on ROI reporting that we get through process mining is going to be a good thing for the recessionary buyer.
We think that our commitment to great customer outcomes, which is why we have that good gross renewal rate and why we come up the top with the poll every year is going to be a good thing seeing us through a recession. So we’re trying to emphasize careful virtues, right? The kind of virtues that a buyer expects in a cautious year. We’re trying to lead with them right now. I wouldn’t say it’s doing much to change the length of our sales cycle, which has traditionally been a bit on the long side. However, solutions make it shorter, and repeat buying can often be very quick. Once we’ve established ourselves with the customer. But sales cycles remain long.
CT: It seems to me like you’d have to have a fair amount of knowledge in the industry that you’re trying to present, maybe to a client. So I see that you have, you know, like financial service, insurance, government health care are some of your core opportunities. My question is, is the greater opportunity for Appian, is it to continue to focus on the industries that you already have a position in? Or is it to discover new industries that maybe you other vendors haven’t had as much experience with you using? Which opportunity is the greatest opportunity?
MC: Yeah. All right. So, I mean, they’re both good. We focus on a few industries, primarily financial services, insurance, government, health care, and pharmaceutical. Those are our core focus areas. And yet you’ll often find that we’ve got one of the top five vendors in an industry that we don’t focus on. Right, energy, retail, transportation. We just happen to have some of the world’s largest organizations as our clients, despite the fact that we didn’t focus on those industries because what we offer this scalable industrial strength process writing platform is something that those organizations really need.
And so I can’t tell you which one is more valuable. I think there’s tremendous opportunity in both. When we invest in solutions, we tend to invest in the areas that we understand the best, where we have repeatable examples of value created. So we can just of make an offering out of that. But the opportunities are terrific in new geographies and new verticals, and we often land some of the most demanding clients there.
CT:
You mentioned ROI a little bit sooner on. And what I wanted to talk about is, is that something that you present to the client right up front or is something that evolves over as they start maybe testing and implementing Appian’s services? Is that something that they get a view of early on or is it as they start to use the product?
MC: Yeah, in my opinion, the key to any ROI assertion is credibility. And so you can’t just walk in and say, look, we’re going to give you X, Y, Z ROI. You have to present it in a way that they’ll understand, and they’ll believe it. So when we first encounter a client, the best way to establish that is with the testimonial of a business leader they respect. You take a leading brand that they can relate to, but they understand maybe that they do business with. And you show them that testimonial. You say this is how an organization that you respect solves the problem that you understand with Appian technology, right?
That’s how you can express Appian with credibility when you’ve only just met the customer, later on, we can use our own process and the results of the processes we built on-site to establish our way. And at that point, you can be numerical. You can be precise. That’s a different way of expressing ROI, but you have to earn that. And so I think that’s a mistake that most organizations make. They come in talking about numbers that have precision but not credibility. And I don’t believe that that’s a meaningful way to present ROI. I think you have to do it always in a foundation of credibility.
CT: So that’s interesting. So the more and more you grow, the more you prove the success you’ve created for other industries and other businesses that will likely feed on to other new clients as well, I’m assuming.
MC: Absolutely. We encourage our customers to offer some kind of a testimonial, perhaps speak at a conference, perhaps make a video. Anyone is interested, can see a whole legion of videos on the app and website. We’ve recorded a number of them and they’re presented on our website. In case you’re interested in stories from your industry or from people you may know, I think word of mouth is exceptionally important.
CT: Okay. Switching gears just a little bit, I wanted to talk a little bit about competition, regulation and how it could impact you a little bit into the future. What I’m seeing is there’s a pretty heavy-handed regulation right now. Any of the larger mega-cap companies, they try to make an acquisition and it doesn’t matter what size it is, they’re getting pushback. Now, it might ultimately get approved, but they’re having to go through 12, 24 months of fighting. And it’s not just here in the United States. It’s around the world. And so I’m wondering, for a company your size, and you can discuss this.
But, you know, I’m looking at maybe you have a larger competitor, maybe a CRM or an SAP or one of these other companies. They could potentially roll up some technologies and then become a valid competitor to what you’re doing. But given the regulatory environment that we’re in, maybe something like that is not, you know, like that strategy might be out the window. So I’m just wondering, what are you thinking about this type of thing? Because I haven’t seen it in a little while or it just seems like it’s picked up a lot of speed over the last couple of years.
MC: Yeah, that’s right. Well, I found this fascinating to see what has happened with the mega caps and how strong they’ve become. It’s easy to mistake an epic market capitalization for epic value delivered, and I’m not sure that they’re actually always the same thing. I think that any multibillion-dollar public software firm is going to be able to deliver meaningful, you know, great successful technology if they’re really focused on that. And so the difference between $1bil and $1tril public software firm may not be the quality of the software you get, but how much control that they have over you, the client, right. They own your data. They’re in their own replaceable. Right.
I’ve been predicting a backlash against this for a while. And I wouldn’t be surprised if if, you know, maybe this regulatory thing is part of it, maybe the general slowdown, maybe just the fact that you don’t tend to get the best software when you’re buying it out of a bucket from whatever your mega vendor has assembled without commitment to being the highest quality because they know they’ve got you as a customer, whether they deliver the highest quality or not. Whereas at Appian we know we’re not the biggest and the other way to win is to be the best. And so everything we do is focused around delivering the best technology.
There’s no other way we’re here, there’s no other way we’re competitive because we’re not a Leviathan. And so we have to impress you, the customer, every day in order to remain leading in this market. That’s the only way for us. So when we aggregate products, when we, for example, take what used to be the workflow market and turn it into the low code market, with process mining workflow automation, we do, you know others will do the same thing. We’re we’re not going to be the only one with that kind of a mission, but we will be the one who cares to do this in the best possible outcome way for our customers, because that’s the only way we survive.
We’re committed to being an innovator. We must be the best we need to win that Gartner poll every year. Every year we need to have a 99% gross renewal rate. And we need our customers to give testimonials to how much they like our software, because we have to make up for the fact that we’re not writing behind the world’s biggest brand. . But it’s already got all the connections that it needs to sell into your organization. And so there is something to say for the quality you get from a focused, dedicated vendor who’s pioneering one market at a time.
CT: This is staying on kind of the acquisition theme. And I listen to an interview that you did, I think it was back in December, and I think he asked you like, ah, you know, maybe a company comes in, tries to acquire you, but you said that no, it would actually be the other way around. You’d be looking to go out into the market and potentially maybe roll up some other companies into your portfolio. Now, that was back in December before everything has gone.
I mean, everything’s been down since then. And so obviously, you can’t speak to specifics or anything like that. But has your opinion changed a little bit now that valuations have pulled back tremendously? Are you looking at different options there?
MC: Yeah, you know, we are looking at some options. And I think it’s important to realize the potential in our strategic situation. And part of that has to do with the Pega verdict, which you haven’t mentioned. But I’ll briefly mention it, because it’s pertinent to the answer here. We recently won a major judgment with regard to intellectual property, and misappropriation with our arch-rival Pegasystems. And it’s a substantial $2 billion. And it’s not awarded at all now it’s in review. They’re going to do appeals as long as they can get away with it, of course.
But that’s a good cash backdrop. And we’ve been a bootstrapped company, so we know how to stay level when we need. And you take a company like that with potentially a tremendous cash-rich reservoir and a history of growing without spending. And you put us into a recessionary situation where asset values are down and thus acquisition opportunities are relatively accessible. And I think that we would be mistaken not to at least take seriously the possibility that we would do a a cash based acquisition during the downturn.
CT: That makes sense. And, you know, I was going to touch on that lawsuit and I just want to emphasize, for people watching, this was a $2 billion award plus interest plus attorney fees. I believe the market cap of your company is, we’ll just call it, right around $3 billion. The competitor is right around $3 billion. I know that you can’t really riff on how significant that is, but I look at that and I am just it’s hard to wrap my head around it. And obviously, it’s got to go through the appeals process. And I’m not an attorney, so I have no judgment on when and if that concludes.
But assuming that it does it, it puts it like I’m looking at your balance sheet, and I think you have 400. It’s like $469 million worth of total assets, and we’re talking about $2 billion here. So it’s, it’s a tremendous opportunity. And I think that’s probably something that obviously, when and if it gets closer to the finish line, certainly can be interesting.
And then if those valuations of these companies that are in the marketplace, they might be struggling a little bit. It could create a big opportunity. I know that’s me kind of analyzing it for you, but I understand that there’s probably only certain things that you can say. Is there anything else you wanted to add to that?
MC: Well, I hear your analysis now. I cannot speak for investors, and I don’t know how they’re evaluating when they choose what they were willing to buy or sell a share of our stock at. But it’s possible that they don’t feel like legal experts enough to really evaluate what that verdict is worth.
And so maybe that’s just a big question mark to a lot of investors. And if so, you know, I understand I understand. I, I think I have a lot more insight into that than the investor on the Street does. And I can see why that’s a complicated hard-to-value asset.
CT: Indeed. Indeed. Yes, I think it will become apparent when and when and if that transaction is consummated. Let’s talk about the most recent results. I think they’re, you know, a couple of weeks old. You’re already into the next quarter kind of focusing on that. You can’t discuss that. But they look to be really strong to me.
You’ve got these software gross margins that are just in the stratosphere that investors really like. You’ve got a good growth rate, a strong revenue growth, you’ve got those mega high software type gross margins. How should investors think about this over the next, you know, 4 to 5 years or so? How are these things going to continue to evolve?
MC: Yeah, I love talking about gross margins. It’s something I am particularly proud of, the company, and to me, it means discipline. It means that we’ve run a tight ship and we’re careful about our expenses, and it is the natural artifact of our history. As a bootstrap, we got through our IPO with only $10 million of outside equity. And it taught us a lot, taught us about self sufficiency and being a customer grown company, not an investor grown company. And, still today, we’re careful with our dollars. So I thought I hope that’s what the investors see when they see Appian’s unusually strong gross margins. I think that we have a lot of opportunity.
I think that our market is very large and we have we have just taken a quarter of it. And so there’s tens of thousands of businesses in the world, organizations that need the capability to create new processes. And we would appreciate an end to end process solution, and the recession won’t last forever. And even while it’s going on, they may see us as a bit of an ROI refuge. And so I think our potential is excellent right now. And I mean to continue running a tight ship, continue being careful about expenditures and dilution and at the same time capitalize on the evident opportunities for this market, which is, in a long sense, in a macro trend, is an intuitively important market.
The world wants a lot more software. The world is going to continue having a little more development capacity. And so we’re going to need to make more software per developer than we have in the past. And so you’re going to need some kind of an efficiency tool that allows people to be more productive. And low code is exactly that. So we’re offering a change to a world that needs change. We’re offering empowerment and development efficiency to a world that needs development efficiency. We’re in a good place.
CT: So, I mean, the way I think about it is like you’ve got this huge opportunity. I don’t know if you guys have put a number on the TAM or the total addressable market, but you know, are you in the first inning of this race? Is it the middle? Maybe give us a sense of how much more runway do you believe you potentially have with this type of business?
MC: There’s so much, right? There are probably 40 potential customers for every one that we have. And even the ones that we have, there’s much more opportunity in them because we didn’t sell enterprise licenses. We could continue growing the business without even acquiring new customers. Given how much opportunity there is to keep scaling back to our installed base. Both of those dimensions are exceptionally exciting, and then I believe these markets will only get larger in the years ahead as businesses invest in agility.
CT: And you talked a little bit about dilution. I’m going through your financials, and I’m used to looking at some of these companies where the stock-based compensation just sometimes it exceeds some of the exceeds revenue. At certain times it seems relatively conservative to me. I also see on the non-GAAP measures, you know, you have a fair amount of litigation expense as well. How should investors think about the stock-based compensation that may be going into the future, maybe some kind of additional fundraising round that you might need for growth or expansion or that type of thing? Any thoughts on that?
MC:
With regards to the last part of that question, I need to say that we never discussed financing prior to the financing. And so, while I appreciate the question, and of course, it’s pertinent right here, I am unable to respond to that particular query. So let me talk about other things, like how much we spent on legal fees. You’re right. We spent a tremendous amount on legal fees over the last couple of years. Now that’s coming to an end because at this point, all we need to do is defend against appeals.
The judgment is rendered, and it’s been entered officially. So that was an enormous expense over the last few years. You’re right about that. We did it because we believed in the gravity of the transgression. We felt that we needed to and should pursue the case to its logical conclusion, given how compelling we felt it was. And so we did that. And I believe, given the size of the verdict, we can be forgiven for that. But we absolutely did spend quite a lot taking that to court in a full manner that, as I say, that’s going to stop now. We don’t mean to be a litigation company. We’re not litigious by nature. So we’re going to dial that expenditure way down now that the verdict has been delivered.
CT: Nice. So, how do you view, well, let’s just look over the next 12 months. Your macro thesis is pretty firm, and I think a lot of people would agree with it. You know, what’s the next 12 months look like? Are you going to really double down on your sales team? Are you going to double down on your existing clients and expanding those relationships? Or are you looking for new parts?
MC: Yeah, we’re going to be growing sales in the next 12 months. We’re going to be putting more account executives out on the street, meeting with customers, and carrying the message that Appian may not be the biggest, but we’re the best in this industry. We are also opening a development center in Chennai, in India, and that’s another big move for us. And by the way, it’s we’re staffing up rapidly right now in the office.
We’re building a staff and we have big plans there. And that has to do with the efficiency and also with the fact that it’s one of the world’s great labor centers. And we need to hire more quickly. So both our growth in development and our growth in sales are bets on this market, bets on the potential of the low code workflow-centric market and how much we believe this will fit the needs of tomorrow’s consumer. At the same time, we continue to be very careful with our expenditures. We will maintain our good margins and grow with discipline.
CT: And so I’m assuming that India, that’s for software developers. Is that why you’re open? That’s to develop software. And I know you’re based out of Virginia. Are you developing software there or do you have offices out here in California?
MC: We do. Almost all of our development is here in Virginia. In fact, we’re right next to Washington. I’m looking out my window now. I can see the National Cathedral. So we’re right on the edge here on the Beltway, they say. And we are we have a large development team here and we are growing it. So we’re not going to trade Virginia development for India development.
We’re going to grow both because we see the necessity for all of the engineering power we can gather.
CT: Do you think that gives you a little bit of an advantage because a lot of these companies are out here in California, and they’re all competing for the same people, the rents for office space and those types of things, and the compensation you’re required to give people out here in California. I mean, I’m not as familiar with Virginia, but like, does that give you a little bit of a competitive advantage on the cost side? Because I’m looking at your costs, and I’m like, if this if they were in Palo Alto, I don’t know if it would look like this.
MC: Yeah, maybe it wouldn’t. Maybe that’s part of why we can get those good margins. I will tell you, labor costs are equalizing across the country, so maybe we get a little bit of an edge. But you know, at this point, people work virtually, and they can easily work for any employer in the United States. So, if one was paying higher and they were going to access everywhere they worked through a video screen, I don’t think much would stop them from taking the higher paying job.
So I think we might get a little bit of an edge in that. But I’ll tell you where I think we get a big edge, and that is we get longer tenures, we get more loyalty. What we’ve built here is an institution, and it’s year after year. It’s rated by the Washington Post as the number one tech company to work for in the Washington region.
And so we don’t have a lot of competition against the next big thing. Right. There isn’t a new venture capital darling every four months that we’ve got to fend off personnel-wise. We have a great software company, but it’s in a place where we’re not surrounded by too many other great software companies. And so we get really good talent. We get that talent to stick around and build a culture with us. We work with wonderful people out here. There’s an enormous amount of talent in the Washington area. And we mean to serve that talent in a long term way by giving a very fulfilling, long-term career path. I think in that way, we really do have an advantage.
CT: And I know that I mean, you founded this company. You’ve been with it forever. And so, but I believe there are other people on the management team and obviously probably employees as well that have been with you in my correct on that.
MC: Oh, you are correct. There are a lot of long-timers here and exceptionally talented people. There’s a set of us now that have been with Appian for two decades, and I’m proud of that group. And I also want to say that I am literally unaware of any other public software company that has four founders, after 20 years, they’re all still working together, running the company. Right. And all four of the founders of Appian are executives and running the company to this day, 23 years after founding it. And I think that speaks to the kind of loyalty that is a core value at Appian. And, you know, we’re also friends. I’m just happy to work with us, with the co-founders.
CT: And probably speaks to the opportunity as well. If you felt like, you know, out here in Silicon Valley, it’s like after a couple of years, it’s like I’m going to move on to the next thing. Whereas, you know, it seems like, you know, people probably envision that your opportunity over the next 5 to 6 years, ten years is still as great as it was two decades ago. Is that a fair assumption?
MC: I think the opportunities tremendous here, and part of it just isn’t simply the financial opportunity. We’re becoming an organization that could be an institution that has charitable outreach. In addition to our technology. And it’s very exciting to see some of that come online. And I believe that people sometimes stay for the culture, they sometimes stay for the technology, they sometimes stay for the ramp in their own income potential, but they also stay for purpose. And I believe that as we reach institution scale, we’re beginning to do some really interesting things around charitable purposes. And that could also be a big factor for us.
CT: Yeah, I see that you have the Appian Thrive outreach program and it looks like you’re advancing STEM careers and opportunities. You want to speak to that a little bit?
MC: Yeah, and that’s cool. And it’s, but that’s like what every company does, right? What I’m trying to do things that are beyond what every company would do. We do all the normal stuff, right? But, but also we’re trying to set examples for how to use technology to make a difference.
So for example, the local food kitchen in the DC Central Kitchen, which distributes food to millions of meals around the Washington area, to people who don’t have access to good food that runs on Appian software. And the point of having that run on Appian software is obviously, first of all, to make a difference for the cause that we care about and get good nutrition to people who need good nutrition. But beyond that, it’s also to create an actual business that makes no money, right? We’re creating a solution based on that.
We’re making a repeatable set of technologies for food distribution, and then we’re going to take that to two other cities where we will work with someday. Lots of cities where we don’t work. And there’s always an organization that distributes food to people who need nutrition. And we’re going to be able to port this software. It’s like a business line that just doesn’t report any revenue. Essentially, we’re really excited about this.
The idea that your own software can be the advantage, right? That we could find a charitable outlet, a non-revenue-generating business that lives up to the kind of standards we would expect if we created a revenue-generating business. It just happens to generate something other than money. And so that’s one of the angles that we’re taking. Another one. A couple of years ago, we decided to get involved in local education in inner city Washington education.
And one way to do that would just be to make the usual gesture like, hey, here’s a thousand laptops, you know, go knock yourself out. And instead of doing a generic thing like that, that would have separated us from the recipient, and we wouldn’t have known the impact it had and it would have been distributed thinly. And instead of that, we went to one school, and we’ve adopted or taken responsibility for one class, just a couple hundred kids. And we’re following that class of kids all the way through their graduation, high school graduation. Right. This is a multi, multi-year project and we’re documenting it year after year. What did we do? How did it help? How do we know that it helped? We’re staying really close. And that way, we’ll have to we’ll see our own impact.
MC: Right. We’ll know if we made a difference. And if we did and we can show it, then maybe we could inspire other organizations to do something similar instead of spreading their contribution diffusely and at a distance. Maybe we can inspire them to get right up close and put their time where their money is and vice versa and dedicate themselves to giving one focused group the opportunities they deserve.
I would love to see something like that become a trend, and I feel that the only thing we have to do to make it one is to validate it with our own results. Prove that it made sense. We’re doing an experiment, but let’s prove it. And so we’re going to issue reports. We’re going to keep people apprised of the progress we make. And I hope that that will become a model for other education interventions in the future.
CT: So I think that’s a wonderful place to maybe wrap things up. I just want to appreciate you coming on here. And being very candid about some of the things that we talked about. Certainly, from an investor perspective, I think there are some exciting things here with the gross margins with that settlement and, obviously the large opportunity you have. Matt, thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate your time.
MC: This has been fun. Thank you.
CT: Thank you. Thank you very much. We’ll see you again.
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