LEONI AG (LNNNF) Q3 2022 Earnings Call Transcript

LEONI AG (OTCPK:LNNNF) Q3 2022 Earnings Call Transcript November 15, 2022 5:00 AM ET

Company Participants

Mark Schneider – VP, Communications and Investor Relations

Aldo Kamper – Chief Executive Officer

Harald Nippel – Chief Financial Officer

Conference Call Participants

Marc-Rene Tonn – Warburg Research

Akshat Khandelwal – JP Morgan

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by. Welcome and thanks for joining the Analyst and Investor Conference Call. Throughout today’s recorded presentation, all participants will be in a listen-only mode. The presentation will be followed by a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions]

I would now like to turn the conference over to Mark Schneider, Vice President, Communications and Investor Relations. Please go ahead.

Mark Schneider

Thank you, and good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I am happy to be part of the LEONI family for more than two months now. We are all together in Kitzingen with our CEO, Aldo Kamper; and our CFO, Harald Nippel. Also with us is my IR colleague, Rolf Becker.

We have the pleasure to guide some of you through our Innovation Industrialization Center recently, the IIC, also in Kitzingen. It gives you an impression of what we plan technique wise for our future.

As the sun is shining in Kitzingen, dark clouds lay on the automotive supplier industry. Two weeks ago we have published our preliminary figures. They reflect the burdens weighing on our industry: higher volatility, stoppages, price increases, and volatility challenges. But there’s also light in our restructuring process.

Having said that, I would like to hand over to our CEO, Aldo Kamper. Aldo, please.

Aldo Kamper

Thank you, Mark, and a warm welcome from my side, ladies and gentlemen. Following the announcement of our preliminary results on November 2, we have today published our quarterly report and, as usual, are also providing further details on the third quarter. We will be happy to answer your questions at the end of the conference call.

Let me first now present some highlights on slide two before I hand over to Harald, who will provide you with more insights on our financial figures. As Mark said, we look back on a particularly challenging quarter [indiscernible] also ended with an unsatisfactory [indiscernible] for us. Overall, inflation rates for materials, logistics, energy, and salaries continue to rise, albeit for materials at a slower pace compared to the previous quarter. With the war in Ukraine, supply chain disruptions, and further geopolitical turmoil continuing, we do not yet see the situation easing. We expect costs to rise next year as well, especially in wages where most of the increases are still pending.

According to IFRS, foreseeable future risks must be reflected immediately in our accounts. Therefore, it was unfortunately again necessary to build considerable provisions for contingent losses with a net impact on our earnings of EUR31 million. However, we are working hard to ensure that those contingent losses do not materialize. This means that we are already in intensive negotiations with our customers to reflect the expected cost increases in the project prices. As soon as we are able to document this contractually, we can release the corresponding provisions for contingent losses.

High volatility of customer call-offs continue to cause efficiency losses. The main reason for this was still the shortage of semiconductors. While WSD is able to meet all client call-offs, our customer supply chains remain strained. Q3 sales from continuing operations increased year-on-year by 6.9% to EUR955 million. This was a result of solid organic growth against a weak quarter last year, which was particularly impacted by the semiconductor shortage. Including EUR328 million in sales from discontinued operations, our consolidated sales reached EUR1.28 billion.

Our EBIT before exceptional items from continuing operations decreased to minus EUR56 million compared to minus EUR3 million 12 months ago. Here, the already mentioned provisions for onerous contracts had the largest effect, followed by burden from inflated material and logistic costs as well as costs related to the highly volatile call-offs. The negative effects were partially offset by customer agreements worth equivalent of a mid-double digit million euro amount.

Our free cash flow from continuing operations reached minus EUR63 million compared to minus EUR85 million in the previous year’s quarter. The negative cash contribution from EBIT was more than compensated by our reduced working capital. We had a positive free cash flow from discontinued operation of EUR23 million. Our group free cash flow came out at minus EUR40 million.

With the publication of our preliminary results on November 2, we revised our forecast for the current financial year. From today’s perspective, we expect group sales from continuing operations to be around EUR3.8 billion. EBIT before exceptional items from continuing operations is expected to be in the high negative double-digit-million-euro range. Free cash flow from continuing operations will be in the high-positive-double-digit-million-euro range. This includes the free cash flow effect of EUR278 million from the sale of the Business Group Industrial Solutions, which was already reported in the first quarter. Not yet considered is the expected cash inflow on the divestment of the Business Group Automotive Cable Solutions, which we expect to close in the coming weeks. We’re also confident that we will be able to complete the announced refinancing, thereby securing LEONI Group’s continued financing until the end of 2025.

And with this, I’m handing over to Harald, who will run you through our financials in greater detail.

Harald Nippel

Thank you, Aldo. Good morning, and a warm welcome also from my side. Let’s continue with a more detailed look at our group sales on page three. Sales from continuing operation increased by 6.9% to EUR955 million year-on-year. This was primarily driven by an organic growth of 12.9%, followed by 6.7% copper price effects and 3.4% FX effects. These positive effects were partially offset by deconsolidation effects of 15.9% from completed WCS disposals within the past month, most notably our Business Group Industrial Solutions. This noticeable sales growth from continuing operation was driven by our Wiring Systems Division with an organic growth of 17.5%. In comparison, our continuing operations in WCS saw an organic sales decline of 4.2%. Sales from discontinued operations went up by 18.8% to EUR328 million, mainly supported by strong volumes. This led to an increase in consolidated group sales of 9.8% to EUR1.28 billion.

Let’s turn to page four for an overview of our group earnings. Over the last 12 months, our adjusted EBIT from continuing operations decreased from minus EUR3 million to minus EUR56 million. The deconsolidation effects of EUR9 million are the result of our already communicated WCS divestments we have executed beginning of the year. In particular, the sale of our former Business Group Industrial Solution had a material impact on this line item. The mentioned 6.9% sales growth translated into volume, mix, and price effects, supporting our adjusted earnings by EUR21 million. However, material and salary inflation had a combined negative effect of EUR28 million. Copper and FX effects resulted in minus EUR6 million, mainly due to a change in currency position as part of the carve-out of discontinued operations.

The negative effect of EUR30 million from others is the result of mainly three factors: first of all, the recognition of the already mentioned noncash net provisions to cover contingent losses of EUR31 million; second, negative earning effects in the double-digit-million-euro range caused by volatile call-offs. Both negative effects were partially offset by a positive effect in the mid-double-digit-million-euro range from compensations agreed with our customers on contributions to the cost increases incurred in previous quarters. With exceptional items totaling minus EUR15 million, our reported year-to-date EBIT from continuing operation was minus EUR71 million at the end of the third quarter compared to minus EUR20 million last year. Including a positive reported EBIT of EUR19 million from discontinued operations, our consolidated reported group EBIT reached minus EUR52 million compared to EUR22 million 12 months ago.

Let us now continue with the free cash flow development on slide number five. Our free cash flow from continuing operations improved from minus EUR85 million in 2021 to minus EUR63 million this year. While the result is, of course, not satisfactory, it must be viewed in the context of the current background. The cash outflow from operating activities of continuing operations in the third quarter was significantly reduced. The negative EBIT was compensated by a positive working capital development, which was mainly driven by the development of inventories and trade payables. Given the noncash nature of the provisions for the contingent losses recognized in our EBIT, the free cash flow increased compared to the previous year, but unfortunately, still remains negative.

However, since beginning of this year, our operating free cash flow has sequentially improved quarter-over-quarter. The free cash flow from continuing operation in the first nine months of 2022 amounted to minus EUR2 million compared to minus EUR182 million in the last year. This improvement is mainly explained by cash inflow of EUR278 million from the sale of the Business Group Industrial Solutions in Q1 2022. In the third quarter, our operating cash flow from continuing operations reached minus EUR21 million compared to minus EUR48 million a year ago. Our CapEx-related cash outflow from continuing operations of EUR42 million was largely at the level of the same quarter in the previous year. Including a positive cash flow from discontinued operations of EUR23 million, we are able to improve the group’s free cash flow by EUR50 million to EUR40 million.

I will now continue with a look on our divisions, starting with WSD on slide six. Sales in our Wiring Systems Division increased by 30% year-on-year to EUR915 million. This development was driven by an organic growth of 17.5%. Furthermore, positive copper price and FX effect of 8.7% and 4% supported our top line. On a geographical basis, sales of our WSD division in the third quarter grew by 32% in the EMEA region, by 28% in the Americas, and by 19% in Asia. EBIT before exceptional items in WSD decreased from minus EUR11 million to minus EUR52 million. This is the result of the recognition of the noncash provisions as well as the increased material and logistics costs and unchanged, quite volatile customer demand.

In addition, the deconsolidation of large parts of WCS led to a change in the allocation of our overhead costs, which since July, are fully reflected in the operating income of the WSD division. Compensation agreements reached with our clients for cost increases occurred in the previous quarters have partially offset these negative earning factors. After exceptional items of minus EUR12 million, WSD’s reported EBIT reached EUR64 million. Exceptional items consist of EUR8 million M&A and EUR5 million refinancing cost.

Let me also address the situation of our colleagues in Ukraine, who have shown unwavering commitment for more than eight months of war in their homeland and continue to do so despite further escalation in recent weeks. We remain in close coordination with our customers and suppliers as well as political representatives to cope with the situation in the best way possible.

Let us move over to Slide number seven for a look at WCS. Carving out WCS has been a long and intense journey for all of us, but we are nearing the promised destination. Just to remind you, we have promised to find a solution for the WCS assets that would be as beneficial as possible for all parties involved, our employees and our shareholders. With the sale process well underway, we believe we have succeeded in unlocking value, giving many of the employees affected a new perspective, focusing the LEONI Group more strongly and, at the same time, reducing our debt. The continuing operations of our WCS division now mainly consists of our Business Group Wire Products & Solutions, for which we have already kicked off a sales process at the end of the second quarter. In the third quarter, sales from continuing operations in WCS came down to EUR40 million compared to EUR189 million 12 months ago. This is mostly due to the disposal of the WCS unit within the past 12 months, most notably the sale of the Business Group Industrial Solutions. However, with minus 4% organic sales growth was also negative.

EBIT before exceptional items from continuing operations in WCS reached minus EUR4 million compared to EUR8 million in the previous year’s quarter. This change is mainly the result of deconsolidation WCS units, most notably the Business Group Industrial Solutions. Further burdens came from increased raw material and energy costs. Reported EBIT from continuing operations in WCS decreased to EUR14 million from EUR18 million in the third quarter of 2021. Discontinued operations include our Business Group Automotive Cable Solutions for which we have signed a binding sales agreement in the second quarter of this year. We expect the closing of this transaction in the coming weeks. Reported EBIT in WCS from discontinued operations slipped from last year’s EUR21 million to now EUR19 million.

Let us now take a look at our key balance sheet items on slide eight. Before I go into the details here, please allow me one remark. Our balance sheet still includes assets and liabilities held for sale, which also include those of the Automotive Solutions Business Group. Therefore, net debt as well as the total debt shown on the next slide includes our discontinued operations. As a result of the negative net result, our equity was reduced to EUR178 million at the end of Q3. Our equity ratio decreased to 5.4% compared to 6.7% at the end of 2021. At the end of the third quarter, our total assets and liabilities were reduced by 3.6%, mainly as the result of the disposal of Business Group Industrial Solutions in the first quarter.

I will now continue on slide nine for a detailed look at our financial position. Our total financial debt, including leasing liabilities and before deduction of cash positions came down from EUR1.71 billion at end of the year 2021 to EUR1.67 billion at end of Q3. The negative operating free cash flow was compensated by the sale of the BG IN. For end of the third quarter, our liquidity, including undrawn credit lines and cash, stood at EUR230 million compared to EUR412 million nine months ago. This position includes cash of EUR145 million by end of September. We are in the final phase to conclude our refinancing plan to secure LEONI’s financing until end of December 2025.

After the fundamental agreement with our syndicate banks reached in July, we are currently in constructive talks with the syndicate banks to conclude the detailed documentation and with the borrower’s note creditors to also agree on a detailed financing plan. We’re confident that we will be able to complete the announced refinancing shortly. We will probably carry out a combination of a capital increase from authorized capital and the issue of a mandatory convertible bond in the course of 2023.

And with this, I will hand back to Aldo.

Aldo Kamper

Thank you, Harald. Most of you have known us long enough to know that we will not simply stand by and watch. Even if the consequence of this perfect storm that we’re in are anything but homemade, we must counter them with the means at our disposal. At the beginning of the year, we presented our ValuePlus performance and strategy program to you. The additional measures that have now become necessary are based precisely on the pillars of this program. Without ValuePlus, we would not be able to react so quickly today.

Let me start with the measures that we have already taken, in early stage, and where we are in the middle of implementation. On one hand, there are stoppage costs due to persistently high call-off volatility as a result of global supply chain disruptions on the customer side. Currently, it is negotiated on a case-by-case basis with our customers, resulting in a corresponding time delay before this is reflected in our results.

On the other hand, we have to deal with rising input factor costs. Especially with regards to material cost inflation, we have already secured significant compensation for the cost increase that incurred in the first half of the year. However, the material cost rise are persisting, and we need to increasingly pass on also logistic cost increases and wage inflation. So far, we have responded to increases partly by agreeing on indexation mechanisms and partly by negotiating on a case-by-case basis with our customers.

With the broadened scope and increasing duration of the challenging environment, we must agree on effective and easy-to-execute mechanisms. Therefore, we aim to replace this case-by-case approach in the long term with contracts that include inflation index price escalation clauses for our key input factors. Already today, a substantial sales volume is covered by these clauses, and we will push to roll this out more widely across our OEM customers.

Overall, we will also work even more closely with our suppliers to minimize price increases and where they’re unavoidable to have enough transparency to pass them on to our customers. But in view of the current environment, we will not be able to leave it at these measures. Additional efforts are necessary, and we are therefore going one step further and have already launched corresponding initiatives. We will review the dimensioning of our resources and adjust investments, inventories and capacities of our plants to the expected volumes.

As a first step, this also includes a hiring and replacement freeze and the close analysis of the needs in the area of overhead. Where possible and necessary, we will also consider the extent to which smart automation can be implemented. This is automation through cobots and AGVs that we can already implement in the current generation of harnesses. Payback times have dramatically come down here, and we will make use of this. The aim is and remains to raise the margin level back to our medium-term targets by successfully implementing our ValuePlus program.

This is by no means easy. Let me share with you a positive example of how we are operationally positioning ourselves for our future on the next slide. In September, we opened our Innovation Industrialization Center, in short IIC, at our WSD headquarters here in Kitzingen. Some of you have already visited the site and got an impression. The idea behind this thinktank is to synchronize product and process development by connecting researchers, engineers, and production specialists at LEONI. The joint goal is to create the wiring system of the future with a high degree of automation.

What do we mean by wiring system of the future? With the transformation of our mobility towards alternative drive system and autonomous driving, we see rising demand on the wiring system as the car’s central nervous system. The wiring system of the future needs to control ever more functions and data in ever less space and with ever less weight. [indiscernible] response of our developers is the so-called zonal architecture of upcoming wiring systems instead of the traditional designs of the harnesses still used today. IIC is a clear investment in our future. It will strengthen LEONI’s position as innovation partner for the automotive industry.

That’s innovating the way we think about architectural wiring systems, we’re also developing new ways of producing them, taking advantage of the chances for higher levels of automation that come with the next generation of wiring harnesses.

So let me summarize. We are challenged by a very difficult environment with rising cost inflation, volatile call-offs due to supply chain issues on the customer side, and other direct and indirect impacts of the war in Ukraine as well as geopolitical and macroeconomic adversities. However, we continue to make progress in reaching agreements with our customers over contribution to the cost increases. Nevertheless, it has not yet been possible to pass on all the additional inflation effects that have already arisen. This is also due to the fact that additional costs caused by inflation and all the customer call-offs are not yet reflected in all existing customer contracts. If at all, cost increases can therefore only be passed on in price increases with a certain time lag as discussed.

Nevertheless, according to IFRS, foreseeable risks must be reflected immediately while our ability to implement price increases will only be reflected in accounting with a time lag, which led to the aforementioned formation of onerous contract provisions. On the positive side, we are on track to conclude our refinancing plan to secure LEONI’s financing at the end of December 25. We’re confident to conclude our refinancing shortly.

Our current refinancing plan consists of net proceeds from the sale to be used primarily to repay our financial liabilities. In line with this, we continue to expect the closing of the sale of our Business Group Automotive Cable Solutions still in the coming weeks. Operationally, we expect demand to be typically more robust in the fourth quarter, which should also be above the third quarter this year. The impact of negative external factors is expected to remain at a level comparable to Q3, but we also expect higher compensation payments from our customers.

With that, I want to thank you for your attention, and Harald and I are happy to take your questions now.

Question-and-Answer Session

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, at this time we will begin the question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] First question is from the line of Marc-Rene Tonn with Warburg Research. Please go ahead.

Marc-Rene Tonn

Yes. Good morning, gentlemen. Just a couple of questions from my side. The first would be on free cash flow. If I understood it right, it’s a negative EUR280 million from continued operations, if we deduct the EUR278 million cash inflow from the disposal we received in the first quarter. And that does not yet include interest expenditure nor any movements of factoring so far. Let’s say, another year with very substantial negative free cash flow, how confident can you be with the refinancing now being underway that you can stabilize this constant stream of cash outflow, which you had experienced in the past years and which are your measures to basically stop that?

My second question, pretty much related to that. We see this inflationary pressure, and you alluded on the negative impact you expect from wage increases. And I think one logical demand by our customers will be automize whatever is possible to automize and to just take wage inflation out of the future equation for the price of the wiring harness, which is similar to harnesses presumably also making the architecture a bit more easy. In other words, how much CapEx would that potentially require in the years ahead? And do you see LEONI being in the position to work with or to stem this CapEx, which is needed to potentially change to become a more capital-intensive company in the future.

And thirdly, with an increasing amount of costs being indexed in your contracts, does that by any means reduce your margin potential because, of course, the risk is mitigated by that, but as you try to mitigate the risk, you presumably also have to mitigate some of the opportunities from these contracts. So the question is, does it by any means change the margin outlook you have for the wiring harness business going forward? That would be my first three questions.

Aldo Kamper

Okay. Let me take those questions in the reverse order and start with the indexation. No, I don’t think that it will have a significant negative impact on our margin ability. I think the benefit of reduced risk is very meaningful and significant. At the same time, already our cost — as a harness manufacturer, we’re quite transparent to the OEMs, honestly speaking. They know the harness bill of material quite in detail. So in that sense, I don’t see much downside in terms of margin pressure, but I see the upside of having less volatility and less also time delays, and for that we need to spend on renegotiating again and again quarter-after-quarter these price increases.

So I think it’s a very healthy way of dealing with this new environment that I think we all have to get used to where inflation will continue to be significant for some time, not a fluke that will just go by in one or two quarters, my expectation. And therefore, we need mechanisms to deal with that. And indexation, I think, is a good one to handle that without having to then debate the price increase again and again, which just takes time and effort on both the OEM and our side.

On your second question on the automation topic. I think of this in two different stages. The one is what can we still do in the current generation harnesses and what are we planning to do with the next generation of harnesses. In the current generation of harnesses, we see that we have potential, or we’re unlocking the potential, of automation costs coming down. Even if the product is not really meant to be highly automized, there are steps in the process that we can now quite cost efficiently address with simple forms of automation like AGVs, that is automated guided vehicles, to replace line runners that we have quite a few from us the material users, you can imagine, is quite high. And that has now a payback in Eastern Europe of 1.5 years. And even in North Africa, it starts to have a payback of around two years.

So to invest that has a very quick return also with cobots handling simple operations, repetitive operations, for example, in testing of modules, not the final harness but the parts of the harness. Also here, we can use cobots now. And also here, we have payback times of less than two years. So the investment that we are having here very quickly start to generate the cash that we need to make next investments here for topics like this. However, the current harness has a limited ability to find those opportunities. But where there are, we are taking advantage of them, and we are very actively driving hundreds of these AGVs and cobots into our production globally to start to address the topic.

In the medium term, the zonal harness has a much better chance to be automized as it is, simply put, cut in pieces and is of two, three meters. You can much better automate than a [indiscernible]. And in that sense, we are very actively working on ways to also automize part of this in a cost-efficient manner. And we actually hope to keep the — and expect to keep the CapEx levels relatively constant to what we see today. On the one hand, we feel we are becoming more and more efficient in our CapEx usage, for example, by putting increasingly all the same types of harnesses like seat harnesses or KSK harnesses in specific plans, and we can have a better massification effect of this. So here, we are saving CapEx, and we want to use that saved money to basically have the budget to spend on the new automation for the zonal harnesses.

And the good part is the zonal harnesses will not happen in a big bang. It will not be that suddenly from ’25, everything is zonal, and we need to refurbish all of our factories. It will come step by step. And therefore, we think that the efficiency gain that we can still get out of our CapEx will pay for the vast majority of the additional requirements that we will see step-by-step out of our total architecture. So I don’t think that it fundamentally changes the picture. CapEx might go up slightly, but we will compensate a large part by becoming more efficient than what we do today.

On the free cash flow, I will hand it over to Harald to take the question.

Harald Nippel

Absolutely. Mark, your calculation is right. The operational cash flow, excluding the impact from the sale of the Business Group Industrial Solution is negative by EUR280 million. But we expect for the fourth quarter positive cash flow. So this is one of the element. But looking back, we need to acknowledge that 2022 is by no means a normal year. And for the outer years, we expect not a constraint on the similar level. And last but not least, we also expect to conclude the transaction of BG AM, which will lead to a significantly reduction of our net debt and also to additional liquidity that we will maintain within the LEONI Group in order to have sufficient liquidity going forward, which has been confirmed by restructuring opinion that is currently being developed.

Marc-Rene Tonn

That’s good. Two follow-ups, if I may. Just one technical question regarding the factoring and reverse factoring volumes at the end of the third quarter. Has there been any major movement compared to the end of H1?

And the second question would be regarding this is automation, and coming back on this topic. I think that historically, one of the key assets of LEONI was always that they can’t manage this labor-intensive work by organizing the plant abroad Ukraine, North Africa, and being really something which was part of the strength of the investment case. Do you see this changing now with these automation, or do you think that they still — this is still one of your assets and organizing that will remain important?

Aldo Kamper

Well, first of all, that will remain important for a number of years because this change is very gradual. We are still putting new harness generation into production today and they will last eight years. So even if zonal architecture starts to get into being by the middle of the decade, the vast majority of our business in even the second half of the decade will still be the harness as we manufacture them today with the advantages that you just spelled out.

However, we also feel that on the automation front, we are creating very interesting ideas. That’s the feedback that we’re also getting from our customers on how to do this in a very cost-efficient manner. And I think we have some interesting approaches. And when you have a chance, please stop by in our IIC to get a flavor of that. And the feedback that we’re getting from our customers that are also visiting us here is that they see us on a very promising [Technical Difficulty]. So we want to add to the current advantage of being able to manage these large numbers of people in very low-cost areas of the world. We want to add to that the capability to smartly and cost-efficiently automize for the next generation of harnesses, and that’s very much what we’re focused on.

Harald Nippel

And compared to your question in terms of factoring and reverse factoring, the sum of both are more or less the same in Q3 compared to Q2 versus slight reduction in the factoring, but the similar amount is an increase in reverse factoring. So the sum of the two remains the same.

Marc-Rene Tonn

Thank you very much.

Aldo Kamper

Welcome.

Operator

[Operator Instructions] Next question on the line is from the line of Akshat Khandelwal with JPMorgan.

Akshat Khandelwal

Good morning. Akshat from JPMorgan. Three questions from my side as well, please. And it’d be great if I could take them one by one. The first one on the negotiations for price increases with OEMs. In nature, are these generally temporary retroactive payments that you have decided for 2022? Or have you been able to create a more permanent index-based approach to have less variability in your results going into next year? And also a clarification on where are you showing these price increases on the EBIT bridge on page four, please. That’s the first question.

Harald Nippel

Okay. So I’ll start with the second part of that question, that would be shown under the volume, mix and price in the green box. And to the first part of your question, of course, we are striving not to get onetime payments but price increases. And for the vast majority of our customers, we have been able to negotiate that. If that is negotiated later in the year, like in the third quarter, of course, there is a retroactive effect in that as well because we oftentimes look back then until 1st of February, 1st of March, 1st of April, something like that, depending on the customer. And once we agree, we will then see that effect, of course, retroactively when we sign the contract for the new pricing and then that pricing is continued going forward.

However, there is then this additional topic that also for a number of customers we have agreed not only on the pricing level but also on an indexation, for example, for plastic materials so that we don’t have to negotiate again next quarter when the input parameters again have changed. This is not throughout all customers yet, but I think it has to increasingly get that way because given the ups and downs in input factors, we otherwise will just spend too much time with our — both our customer side and our side in chewing through this quarter after quarter. So that’s why indexation in my mind is so important, and we have agreed that with about third of our customers roughly at the moment for more materials than just copper.

So again, definitely, we are looking for price increases and not one-offs, if possible. And for the vast majority, that has happened. Secondly, for the ones where we have now new price levels, we have in a number of instances also agreed on indexation, so that it gets easier for the future.

Akshat Khandelwal

That’s helpful. The second question on WSD profitability. Is it possible to discuss the net impact that you expect from cost inflation and production volatility on your P&L for 2022 overall? And with higher energy and labor inflation that you talked about next year, do you expect these overall headwinds on the P&L to come down or go higher as we think about 2023, please?

Harald Nippel

The overall material cost increase that we have digested and to a very large partner negotiated is a very high single digit — double-digit number for this year. And the vast majority of that has been negotiated and have already shown or will show in the fourth quarter. On those type of costs for next year, I think the number will be at least as high that we need to pass on, but the mix will be different, where material cost increases for this year, the majority of that increase that we need to discuss next year, it will be much more the logistic cost inflation and labor cost inflation that we will need to pass on.

But the amount, I think, again, will be a very high double digit, if not a triple-digit number that we’ll have to, again, discuss and negotiate with our customers. For this year, whether all these costs are covered in this year also depends a little bit on timing. Some of it might [indiscernible] into next year, but the very vast majority will be negotiated for this year.

And the other part besides the inflation is the stoppage costs. And here, definitely, we will get reimbursed for a lot of the stoppages that have already happened now until Q3, I would say, or early Q4. But if we still have unforeseen stoppages late in Q4, of course, those cost reimbursements will only happen next year. So there will be some spillovers of burden that we will not be able to get passed on in this fiscal year, although it will normally be paid is our experience.

Perhaps as a last remark, for the input costs, energy costs are fairly minor topic for us. As you know, we are not very — in the WSD, it is assembly business. So it is basically for heating and cooling of buildings. The heating is not even always on the gas, actually. For example, in Ukraine, we have fully switched to wood pellets to be less dependent. But overall, that is a minor topic. We are not an energy-intensive — we don’t have a process in our harness manufacturing that is very energy intensive. So energy is a fairly minor topic here.

Akshat Khandelwal

Thank you. That’s very helpful. A quick follow-up. When you talk about the different elements driving cost inflation next year, as of today, do you believe that the OEMs are willing to share the burden of labor and energy to the extent they were willing on materials and freight?

Aldo Kamper

I have no contradictions — I have no indications to contradict that statement. So far, it has always been the case that we needed to be transparent and to have a good clear explanation for the customers of why it has happened to the extent that this has happened. And yes, there is some truth to what you’re saying, in the sense, that material cost is something that all companies are encountering, whereas LEONI has an unusually high labor portion in their cost structure. So that is somewhat special. So it will require more explanation is my expectation. But at the end of the day, I think like the material, they will recognize this unavoidable cost. It is not under the control of LEONI. And as long as we show that we are also, at the same time, continuing to work on productivity to somewhat compensate it, but you will not be able to compensate 8% or 10% wage inflation with productivity in a product that you have been manufacturing already for 30, 40 years is not feasible and the OEMs know that. So I’m confident at the end of the day that after perhaps a bit lengthier discussion, we will still get to the same results that they will take on the vast majority of those cost increases.

Akshat Khandelwal

Great. Understood. Last question is on IFRS-16 lease payments. I just had a clarification on where are these accounted for in terms of the principal portion on your cash flow statement? Does it fall within investing activities or financing activities, please?

Harald Nippel

It’s part of the financing activities.

Akshat Khandelwal

Understood. Thank you so much.

Aldo Kamper

Welcome

Operator

There are no further questions registered at this time. I will hand back to Aldo Kamper for closing comments.

Aldo Kamper

Okay. Well, if there no further questions, thank you very much for your attention today. Again, an exciting quarter. We all hope that, to some extent, it gets positively more boring going forward. I would love to see the world calm down and inflation retrieve and the situation in Ukraine to be resolved. However, at the moment, these are only hopes, and we need to be prepared and continue to work in the environment we’re currently seeing of high volatility and high pressures.

I think, at LEONI, we have shown that over time we have become quite experienced in fighting those pressures and dealing with them, but it is still a fight. I don’t want to hide that fact. So we will continue to do so. I can only say that the team is highly motivated. We have a clear picture of the challenges ahead and are addressing those. And hopefully, also with the closing of our refinancing soon, that also will be an important signal both to our organization in terms of the stability going forward, but it’s also being a clear signal that our financing banks will, of course, also look in detail into our performance and the outlook of the performance have the confidence that it is worthwhile to continue to stay engaged with LEONI. And I, of course, also hope that our investors see similarly and continue to be part of our journey going forward. And with that, thank you again very much for your attention today, and wish you a good further part of your day. Bye-bye.

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, the conference has now concluded, and you may disconnect your telephones. Thanks for joining and have a pleasant day. Goodbye.